I'm bailing out of Rewards

I’m still a big Brave fan and booster, but we’re losing ground. When I first started using Brave years ago, I lost all my BAT multiple times through bugs or my own ineptitude or whatever. Whatever it was, it resulted in BAT gone.

When I finally got enough to open an Uphold account, I did. It was much more stable. I finally sold my BAT and bought a cheeseburger. Yay! Progress!

Then Uphold forced all their users to enage in some kind of biometric scanning nonsense on every transaction, no opt out. It was for my safety, but when I told them I didn’t want to be made safe in that particular way, I was told tough. So I took my BAT and moved it into my Brave Wallet! Then somehow it got fumbled and all lost again.

So now I’m being told I have to move it or lose by Brave themselves. I’m definitely not going back to Uphold, so I’ll just go to… oh wait, Gemini is “temporarily not available”. So bottom line, there’s only one option for moving my BAT, and I’ve already had a bad experience with them.

So yeah, I’m out. I’m going to continue to use Brave, but I’m turning off all ads. And if a Brave user isn’t using the ads, what’s the point? It’s precious little more than just another browser with an ad blocker.

I’m not complaining, I’m just explaining.


i have been using uphold for years and have never had to do any biometric authentication… ever, just normal code based 2fa. ofc I don’t have any bank or credit linked to my uphold, so that may be a factor.

Lest anyone think I’m making this up:

OK, so maybe it wasn’t all transactions, but attempting to get my money somewhere I could actually use it, which was the entire point of collecting my BAT in the first place, did.

yea I figured it was about withdrawing cash. I have never done so since I have no bank account. I have withdrawn to the eth chain before for a brave wallet swap promo.

The debate overall is in your use of “biometric scanning.” Key word is I’m saying “debate” because there can be strong arguments on both sides of whether it fits under that. But what I will say is most, if not all places, require it to a point.

Such as if I go to a bank, I have to provide my ID and all, to which they look at the ID and then at me to see if I’m the same person. This is because they have a responsibility to make sure they aren’t opening fraudulent accounts and are abiding by laws.

I mean, should I be able to snap a picture of your passport/ID and create an account in your name with it? Do you expect them to open it and allow transactions without making an effort to prove who I am? That’s what is going on there.

I touch on a lot of areas where this is kind of mandated by governments at Why is KYC/AML required?.

That said, I do want to point out Brave has been looking into trying to get on chain BAT payments for a while. Supposedly we’re getting closer to that being a thing, with a current plan going through Legal. Supposedly if this occurs, they (Brave) will be able to offer the on chain payments without requiring KYC/AML.

I mean, legally might still have to KYC/AML somewhere to convert it to cash, but that would be on you and wherever you’re exchanging it. Brave just has been treading cautiously since inception to make sure they don’t walk over any major landmines in terms of laws and regulations.

I’m encouraged that this got any traction at all. I genuinely expected (and perhaps deserved) to be completely ignored as guy shaking fist at clouds. I guess everyone in this community can relate to being that guy from time to time.

But yeah, I don’t think your comparison to my ID at banks holds up, for many reasons. First, at a bank, I’m not providing any other kind of authentication. Second, at Uphold I’m already providing vastly superior authentication than my ID at a bank. I mean, I already gave them my ID to open the account. This is just authenticating that I’m still that guy. Third, Uphold and the whole crypto thing is supposed to not be banks. Aren’t we supposed to be eliminating the gatekeepers to our own transactions? Fourth, why must we pretend this is being done for my safety when I’ve explicitly and informedly told them I don’t want their safety? I don’t mind it being an option or even a default. I don’t mind it even being required for their safety for transactions over a certain amount. But we’re literally talking about pocket change here.

The whole loop from advertiser to guy selling me a cheeseburger barely works anyway. Whether it’s laws, bad service policies, or what - it’s just not working. But it has actually been getting worse from this user’s perspective.


I know Brave is always listening in and plenty of people check out the topics. What helped is you didn’t comment like an asshole. Way too many people just insult and create stories. You just kind of told it like it is, focusing on facts rather than opinions, assumptions, or name calling. Perhaps not fully accurate in it all, but it is what it is.

Really? Look at https://www.chase.com/personal/banking/education/basics/what-you-need-to-open-a-bank-account and others. You are required to provide

  • Drivers license or passport

  • Proof of address

What is interesting is that there’s been a lot of back and forth on whether SSN is required to open an account. For example:


Yet, we also see as below:

So again, one of those things where people on both sides can argue and be 100% correct. Just not sure how things work on them doing everything in regards to legal reporting and all for IRS, except that they just report your info and it gets matched to you?

In any case, Uphold just basically asked for that same information to create an account.

Correct. Like I tried saying in my example, I can scan/fax your ID to someone and claim I’m you. So they took and added the idea of you doing a selfie along with the ID to make sure it’s actually you and not some random person claiming to be you.

Not quite right. Governments require exchanges to be licensed and are regulated in a similar notion as banks. In fact, crypto exchanges are being more heavily regulated. Again, this is one huge conversation to be had.

It’s their BS way of phrasing things. “It’s for your safety” is partially true in that they want to make sure it’s not someone trying to steal your identity. But more than anything, it’s them saying, “we don’t want to get fined or lose our business by allowing fraud, money laundering, or anything of the sort.”

The link I provided in the prior reply of mine isn’t showing anyone clicked on it. If you didn’t go to it and check out what I wrote or links to some key articles, I’d suggest you do so as it’s quite educational.

Or can even just check out https://www.investopedia.com/news/how-sec-regs-will-change-cryptocurrency-markets/ too as it’s a decent updated just this month.

But as I mentioned in the links elsewhere, other issue is lot of this started to fall under the Patriot Act and all. They claimed money was being used for terrorism, drugs, and human trafficking. As crypto grew and was being used, it took a lot of attention. You see news on it too, such as https://abcnews.go.com/US/new-york-city-woman-charged-financing-terrorist-groups/story?id=96818461 and https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/us-attorney-announces-historic-336-billion-cryptocurrency-seizure-and-conviction

So yeah, government very much wants to know what’s going on. And so long as people have the ability to convert to fiat (real cash), you’re stuck being regulated.

I didn’t mean to bail out on this discussion. It just got lost in my To Do. But I don’t really have much else to add. I do want to address a point where I think we were talking past each other that I think it important.

And then you provide further evidence to support your point. But I wasn’t trying to suggest I never gave ID to open my bank account. I was trying to point out that I don’t show ID every time I want to make a transaction involving my money in my bank account, and that even when I do provide ID, that’s the only authentication I’m providing.

Let me be clear. Yes, I gave my ID when I opened my bank account. But when I write checks and mail them to people, I don’t show ID. When I schedule payment through the online payment system, I don’t show ID. When I use my debit card, I (generally) don’t show ID. When I transfer money to my brokerage, I don’t show ID.

All of these cases of freely and easily using my money in my bank account is what I was trying to contrast with my experience with Uphold. BAT was put into my account. The first time I sold BAT and then transferred the USD out of my Uphold account, this was all done simply by authenticating within the Uphold app, just as it would be if I were doing similar activities (selling securities or transferring funds) within my bank or brokerage account. But when I tried to do this the second time at Uphold, now suddenly I had to submit to face recognition in order to do this, despite my already having authenticated just as I had the first time. That’s the part I object to.

And it’s not even so much that I’m objecting to whatever laws may apply or how Uphold is applying them. I’m simply pointing out that from the customer’s point of view (this customer in particular), the experience is onerous compared to literally every other financial account transaction in my life. The BAT/Uphold experience is different, invasive, and cumbersome. There may be no one to blame at all for this. Maybe anti-crypto forces are trying to make it difficult. Maybe there’s too much butt-covering going on. I don’t know. But I do know that the whole thing isn’t working for me.

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@illgble understood. Btw, not responding to have the last word and if you need me to be quiet so you can say it last, let me know and I’ll not respond. Otherwise just trying to reply with info and see if we can’t get on the same page.

Yeah, guess main thing I’m saying is Uphold just gets this information from you when you create your account. Once you do it, they almost never ask for it again. The only thing is they do need to streamline things a bit, because they’ll toss in a Liveness check when you go to withdraw for the first time just to make sure it’s actually you.

This is newer policy to a point. I’m not sure how old you are or if you ever used checks, but I’m 37 years old. Back when I was 16 and trained to be a cashier, we accepted checks as payments. We always had to ask to see ID for anyone trying to use a credit card or check. We also couldn’t accept a credit card if it wasn’t signed.

Back then, people didn’t always do that even though it was expected. And of course over the past 10 years, people don’t seem to ever ask for ID. Instead we’re even encouraged to self checkout and everything. But it was considered wise and responsible to ask for ID, at least then.

Well, we’ll see how things go. I forget if I mentioned prior in our discussion (don’t feel like reading again), but Brave is in the midst of trying to build out Rewards to allow for on chain payments that wouldn’t require any custodial partner. They’d be able to send the BAT and all directly to you.

The difference overall is in the experience of their legal team and better understanding how things work. From creation until now, they have tried to be very careful and went with the most cautious of trends to make sure to avoid any legal issues. We have seen how many places have gotten in trouble while Brave stayed in the clear.

But now they are more confident in that they can pay directly. The big issue is just doing it in a way that won’t financially bring the company down due to all the gas fees and all. They are looking at Solana last I heard, though I’m not sure if that’s the chain they’ll use or if it’s something else. People still should be required to KYC/AML somewhere when they go to withdraw, but that will be their own problem at that point. But Brave should be good…at least from what I’m understanding.

Unfortunately, we’ve only had vague pieces of information given. They should be releasing a BAT Roadmap and all soon that hopefully will tell us a lot more.

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I’m a pretty poor correspondent, it seems, on this issue. But I’m tired of this sitting in my ToDo box.

Yeah, guess main thing I’m saying is Uphold just gets this information from you when you create your account. Once you do it, they almost never ask for it again.

I didn’t have enough transactions to discover whether this is true. I only had probably three withdrawals or so before I was hit with the “liveness” check. Perhaps my understanding was wrong, but I thought that had become something I had to do every time. But I still think you’re apologizing too much for them. I’ll return to this below.

This is newer policy to a point. I’m not sure how old you are or if you ever used checks, but I’m 37 years old. Back when I was 16 and trained to be a cashier, we accepted checks as payments. We always had to ask to see ID for anyone trying to use a credit card or check. We also couldn’t accept a credit card if it wasn’t signed.

Let’s just say I’ve been writing checks well longer than you’ve been alive. But I was never in the habit of handing a check to someone in person, say at the grocery store. Lots of people did, and I’m sure they were required to show ID, but I didn’t.

When I talk about not showing ID with checks, I’m talking about through the mail. I’ve sent untold numbers of checks through the mail, stacks and stacks of them. And to this day it’s quite common for your bank to send them on your behalf when you use online checking.

And we all do this with our credit cards as well. We all routinely buy things online with nothing like a liveness check. And it’s also common for one to direct one institution to send money to another, like when you use, say, Apple Savings to withdraw money from your checking.

The point I’m trying to make is that pretty much everyone I know has a fairly complicated financial life - checking, savings, brokerage, multiple banks, credit cards, friend exchanges, many vendors, online, offline - you name it. I know I do. And I’d never yet had an app require me to turn my phone camera on to pay a friend for pizza. It’s just a step in the wrong direction.

I don’t mean to say that there aren’t real differences between crypto and checks, credit cards, banks, vendors, cash settlements, etc., etc. I’m not suggesting that there aren’t good reasons for things to be substantively different for Uphold and crypto. But whatever those reasons might be, the end result is that my personal experience was uniquely bad when compared with every other financial transaction in my life, perhaps with the exception of redeeming a CD or getting a mortgage. Those are pretty awful.

Brave is in the midst of trying to build out Rewards to allow for on chain payments that wouldn’t require any custodial partner. They’d be able to send the BAT and all directly to you.

I hope so. And I hope they’re able to get my attention to make this clear to me once it begins. If things get better, I’ll be happy to turn my ads back on in Brave, but right now, it would just be charity.

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Brave needs to come up with another wallet service because Uphold/Gemini aren’t reliable.

Now, due to FCA in the U.K. my account (in the U.K.) is at risk of being closed because it says I don’t meet the requirements which is absurd.

I have contacted Uphold about it, but it looks like they’re ignoring me as they’ve not replied since the 29th and this is an important matter to be solved.